| tekmage | Hello Dr Havemose! |
| tekmage | Welcome back to IRC |
| havemose | hi. I'm allan havemose. I'm in charge of development of the new Amigas GA |
| havemose | If there are any technicla questions I can answer, please post GA |
| TB | Ummm, should be wait for the other 40 people? |
| tekmage | the internet is having problems today, we are going to wait a few moments for the people to return |
| tekmage | and they are back |
| TB | have: I'll start the questions. What advantage will QNX give us? |
| TB | GA |
| tekmage | if you have a question for Dr havemose, please "/msg tekmage ?" |
| tekmage | Comunion is up first TB |
| havemose | Several. most importantly it is a fully protected OS with processes and threads |
| TB | tek: 10 4 |
| havemose | Also the networking capabilities are very impressive. For instance, qnx supports transparent |
| havemose | networking. where you can move an applications from one computer to another one without any speicial programming |
| havemose | Fully support for TCP/IP, with java enabled browser. |
| havemose | Microkenel architecture,where all device drivers run in user space |
| havemose | scalable from 100k rom with no disk to 100s for SMP systems networked. Powerful ... |
| havemose | GA |
| Comunion | Dr, when are you going to be Finshed Amiga OS 3.5 and When will Amiga NG be Available to The General Public? When are you going to Announce The Cost for Amiga NG ? Will it also have Networking as Stanard like Window's NT ? Will Netscape be Included in the SOftware that goes with it ? |
| Comunion | GA |
| tekmage | Que is fraggel, General_L, TB |
| havemose | Comunion: the classic OS upgrade is scheduled for release in the first half if 99. |
| havemose | We have not given a real schedule for the new Amigas. We will first create a "development ;system" |
| havemose | this will be followed systems. My focus right now is on the development ;syste. |
| havemose | Networking is standard. Browser is standard. java is standard. GA |
| Fraggel | have: how many people will you/amiga inc hire for development ? GA |
| tekmage | German keyboard |
| havemose | Fraggel: outside the QNX development group I will probably initially hire under 20. More later. GA |
| tekmage | Que is fraggel, General_L, TB, MAY_, d9090 |
| General_L | Will amiga os 5 have the same structur as older amiga os version! I mean C: libs: startup-sequnce and so on? and the same device names and so :) GA |
| Comunion | I will after this is over |
| havemose | general_l: we haven't made those decisions yet. QNX's layout is different but very logical, so it will likely |
| havemose | be somewhere in between GA |
| MAY_ | Dr, what kind ofDr, what are QNX thinking of this partnership, did they use Amigas before? |
| MAY_ | GA |
| havemose | may: we did a quick survey at qnx. More tna 60% of all engineers have or had amigas! |
| havemose | They fully understand what Amiga is, was and what I want to do ! Very importnat to me. GA |
| tekmage | Que is TB, d9090, dave |
| TB | d9090: hello? |
| tekmage | move on |
| d9090 | It sounds like you'll be using a lot more of QNX than the kernal. And someone mentioned two teams as if they're already formed. Can you be a little forthcoming about what they've been doing if that's the case? |
| d9090 | GA |
| babsimov | its in moderated mode |
| havemose | d9090: Some confusion here. People often use the words kernel and OS as synomyms. That is not the case. |
| babsimov | yes |
| havemose | We will use must of the qnx as our FOUNDATION. Amiga will add OpenGL, multimedia, user interfaces |
| havemose | configuration and lots of the user experience stuff. GA |
| Dave | will 5.0 be case sensitive? over |
| havemose | Dave. Depends on file system. GA |
| tekmage | que is dave, TB, snoopy, ktf^f451, ^moridin, General_l, fraggle, salup |
| TB | have: With recent chip anouncments and developments, is the MMC still a good option? |
| TB | GA |
| havemose | TB: assuming the MMC means the "mystery" chip. Yes, but we have multiple choice of of chips. |
| havemose | QNX works on both intel, PPC, mips, and several risk processors. So we do not have to make a choice yet |
| havemose | and we havent. |
| havemose | GA |
| sN00Py | ok are you sure being in partenership with AI is a good idea ? like are you prepared for the countless number of emails and spams on a technical level from the amiga user base? your website is ok but we need more information about QNX! |
| sN00Py | have you seen the MMC chip yet |
| sN00Py | do you know who it is. GA |
| tekmage | Que is ktf^f451, ^moridin, General_l, Fraggle, salup |
| TB | sno: Your speaking to Amiga heaf tech, you know that dont you? :) |
| TB | head even :) |
| havemose | snoopy: we have just announced our relation ship yesterday. Hence little informatiton yet. We will |
| havemose | obviously provide all details through our developers program. GA |
| ktf^f451 | sometime ago you said OpenGL will be used as graphics API. Will we have a lower level 3d API too??Will hardware bashing still be possible?GA |
| tekmage | Que is ^moridin, General_l, Fraggle, salup, babsimov |
| havemose | ktf: good question. OpenGL is our choice for higher level graphics programming. I haven't finished my |
| havemose | analysis of the required functionality at a primitive-level graphics API. GA |
| ^Moridin | When will the new processor be revealed? How much will the dev program cost? GA |
| havemose | Moridin: the "new procesoir" is not important right now, so we will not announce. Secondly it may change over time. |
| tekmage | Que is General_l, Fraggle, salup, babsimov, riley |
| havemose | We announced in london that we target sub $1300 for a development system. That could change slightly, since |
| havemose | I have certain performance requirements for the graphics and audio subsystem that may prove a few huyndred |
| havemose | dollars more expenseive . GA |
| fraggel | oops, it's fixed |
| General_L | Is there any ppl working on the G.U.I or any user interface? If so can u tell us something about it ? Will it be like most usualy G.U.I`s or something realy special? Will it be VERY configurabel? GA |
| tekmage | Que is Fraggel, salup, babsimov, Riley |
| havemose | general: we have showed some of our concept UI's previously (london and magazines) so we have |
| havemose | people working. Currently our focus is more on the techn0ology than the exact look. GA |
| Fraggel | have: when did QNX get in the picture ? weeks ago or month.... And about the "mystery" chip, is transmeta a good chip ? GA |
| tekmage | Que is salup, babsimov, Riley, May_ |
| havemose | Fraggel: I don't want to answer business related issues. I've known QNX for years ... GA |
| tekmage | Que is salup, babsimov, Riley, May_ |
| babsimov | do you know the price of Amiga NG ? |
| havemose | babsimov: no, were are currently focused on architecture an technology. Products come later. GA |
| Riley | Can you give a rough estimate on how many people are workimg and will work on the OS5? Some people seem to live under the impression that only the people mentioned on AInc's homepage are...Could you say something to convince these people that OS5 is really happening? |
| Riley | ga |
| tekmage | Que is salup, May_, fujiko, ktf^f451 |
| babsimov | no problem |
| havemose | Riley: As mentioned previously on this session, I expect the amiga Inc developement group to grow to about |
| havemose | 20 people over the next year. QNX is extra. GA |
| MAY_ | One more question about user interface:Fleecy already annunced that Amiga will change the whole manifesto of computing and all the computers (incl. Amiga classic) today are ancient machines. In these conditions, we expect that Amiga changes the manifesto user interfaces too. With OS5, will we still be using windows, drawers, icons and... A MOUSE? |
| MAY_ | GA |
| havemose | may: the UI model that is our foundation has all the necessary architectural interfaces for supporting |
| havemose | speach recognition, handwriting etc. Initially, I think that we will focus on windows/mouse/ke;yboard |
| havemose | type interface, since that the environment our devlopment tools run in. GA |
| tekmage | Que is fujiko, ktf^f451, General_L |
| fujiko | Is sure that NG Amiga will be based on MMC? Or you're thinking about an OS that runs on more than one cpu? If so, will we have os5 on classic ppc amiga? if not, h&p will port os3.5 to ppc?ga |
| havemose | fujiko: our foundation os runs on intel, ppc, mips and several other risk processors. MMC is just another. |
| havemose | currently we're working on architecture and ijplementaiton of the development system. What products eventually |
| havemose | will be released is to early to answer. GA |
| tekmage | Que is ktf^f451, General_L, TB, tekmage, d9090 |
| ktf^f451 | will the UI be built upon Photon library???GA |
| havemose | ktf: we will use elements of photon. GA |
| tekmage | que is General_L, TB, tekmage, d9090, nutmutt |
| havemose | ktf: followup. wE will NOT use the look and feel of photon ! GA |
| General_L | Will Amiga Os include some kind of emulator so other bins then just AmigaOS bins can be runned with out a special emulator? IF so wich os`s will be emulated? GA |
| havemose | genrral: we are working on an "amiga on a PCI card". We plan to use that for the development system. |
| havemose | We are investigating an emulatin option as well, even though I personally think that the AmigaPCI should |
| havemose | be sufficient. GA |
| TB | Does OS5Dev/OS5/AmigaNG in general have code names? If so, what are they :) |
| TB | GA |
| havemose | TB; we haven't done that yet :) I guess we need to sample names of wives, dogs and kids :) GA |
| TB | :) |
| tekmage | Since the QNX OS will run on PPC hardware, would Amiga Inc have a problem with someone porting OS5 to powerup |
| tekmage | GA |
| havemose | tekmage: I don't know the answer to that. Since there is source code involved, there are lawyers involved. GA |
| tekmage | Que is d9090, nutmutt, zed, May_, toshka, trekkie |
| d9090 | Is 4Q(Nov)99 still anything like a possible NG release date? Given QNX's wide HW/CPU support, is it possible that OS5 will be initially released on multiple platforms? GA |
| havemose | d9090: release one is strictly a developers system on Intel. Since we haven't spec'ed every detail |
| havemose | a real schedule does not exist right now. Suffice to say, tha QNX saved me man-years of work. GA |
| NutMutt | Dr Havemouse: Will some, if not all, of the Amiga-native functions be imbeded into the new OS? ie.,Draging of entire screens and the like... And... Do you have anything new to accounce regarding OS3.5? GA |
| tekmage | Que zed, May_, toshka, trekkie, petah |
| havemose | nutmutt: as much as possible. some of that will be restricted by the capabilities of the chipsets. |
| tekmage | Que is CLOSED |
| havemose | Most people don't understand that screens etc. are effects enabled by the custem chips. GA |
| stelm2 | lucky you |
| zEd | Do you intend to use the X Window System, as QNX seems to support it now? GA |
| havemose | zed: no. GA |
| MAY_ | Have you spoken to Sassenrath about including rebol in OS5 (and OS3.5)? Will he give active support to these Osses? GA |
| tekmage | Final Que is toshka, trekkie, petah, stelm2 |
| havemose | may: as a matter of fact i have ! Carl and I know each other for many years now. At the amiga show |
| wiz | if havemose want to stay will you give him more time? |
| TB | BTW: Carl has stated he will support anything Amiga Inc Releases. |
| havemose | in Sacramento a few months ago, he committed to AmigaOS 5. GA |
| toshka | what 3d api will be used,what about price for os-pc version is very expensive afaik...? what about migration program for |
| toshka | developer,what compiler wiill be official? GA |
| wiz | great, thanks |
| havemose | toshka: maybe we could get everyone to read previous answers before posting. OpenGL for 3D graphics. |
| havemose | Development system cost estimated to be $1300. Compiler I cannot annouce yet. GA |
| trekkie | Have: What is Photon ? |
| tekmage | Final que is petah, stelm2 |
| havemose | trekkie: Photon is QNX's UI engine. As previously posted, we will use the engine, but not it's Look and feel. GA |
| Petah | This "QNX" company is your new "OS partner", but what exactly is an "OS partner"? What parts of the QNX OS do you find interesting? What parts of Classic AmigaOS can we expect to show up in AOS 5? Eh, ARexx? :) GA |
| havemose | Petah: qnx will provide kernel, file system, device drivers etc. Amiga will provide ui, graphics, 3d, multimedia, |
| havemose | video etc. GA |
| Stelm2 | does Qnx provide support for writing device drivers that can run on various platforms and CPUs (source compatible)? |
| Stelm2 | GA. |
| havemose | stelm2: qnx device drivers are simple to write. They are like any other user-space process. Can stopped and started while the system is running. |
| havemose | The qnx architecute already supports multiple architecures and platforms. GA |
| tekmage | Havemose, can you say for a few more questions or do you need to get back to the show? |
| TB | Lost: ask |
| havemose | tekimage: i have a bit more time. This is more fun than meetings. GA |
| tekmage | hehehe |
| tekmage | ok go lostman |
| lostman | Have: How aboutt language support for non-roman characters (like chinese)? |
| tekmage | Que is open, Wiz thank you |
| havemose | lostman: full unicode support. Last night we showed the same application running in german, english and japanese. In excess of 30 languages. GA |
| jOule | basic question: What will be the business concept/'slogan' of the new Amiga? (no precise answer required) |
| TB | have: good to hear :) |
| tekmage | Que is trekkie, fujiko, ktf^f451, snoopy, riley, dave |
| havemose | joule: I don't really know of "slogan". We'll let the marketroids loose later. GA |
| TB | have: Is it true Jeff is a slave driver? :) |
| havemose | tb: :) no. GA |
| trekkie | do you know what does microsoft think about the amiga now? |
| havemose | trekkie: I have no idea. And I really don't care. GA |
| trekkie | =) |
| tekmage | que is fujiko, ktf^f451, snoopy, riley, dave, toshka |
| fujiko | Realtime OS means that now my multitrack audio/midi project will not loose sync?!? |
| havemose | fujiko: Exactly. We can do a context switch will full context save/restore in less than 1 micro second. |
| havemose | This allows us and you to use the OS to synchronize video and audio. GA |
| ktf^f451 | since the writer of glowicons works for SGI too, does this imply any further implication between SGI and Amiga?GA |
| havemose | ktf: no. GA |
| tekmage | que is snoopy, riley, dave, toshka, d9090 |
| sN00Py | what functionality did you show in your demo last night of QNX-OS? |
| sN00Py | ga |
| havemose | snoopy: we moved an application from one computer to another live. It was running on PC1 and at the press of a button, |
| havemose | i began running on a second system. |
| havemose | We played doom running with 1/2 of doom on one PC and the other half on the other PC> This was |
| havemose | doom on QNX, not Windows. Showed the multiple languages. Booted the entire OS with internet support, |
| havemose | browser, word processor and an animation off a 1.4 MB floppy. GA |
| Riley | will the unicode support be realized in the same way as the Classic Amiga, ie. no need for separate versions of the OS, but just different localization files? ga |
| tekmage | que is dave, toshka, d9090, snoopy |
| havemose | Riley: yes. The unicode uses utf8 encodeing, so that strcpy etc work just fine. The rest currently uses |
| havemose | "resources" embedded in the executable. A little bit differnt from Amiga, but we havenb't decided on all |
| havemose | the details.. gA |
| Dave | will the filesystem be case sensitive? |
| Dave | how would a task allocate some memory? |
| Dave | over |
| tekmage | que is toshka, d9090, snoopy, babsimov |
| havemose | Dave: If i remember correctly,tthe standard qnx file system is case sensitive. We can alway make a case insentive one |
| havemose | if we feel like it. GA |
| toshka | what about gnu c++ support ?what do you think about current amiga h/w developers role in a future market?will you implement |
| toshka | virual memory (swapping) GA |
| tekmage | que is snoopy, babsimov |
| havemose | toshka: we have full VM. Gnu tools already work on QNX, so little work should be needed. GA |
| sN00Py | did your qnx demo bring up the formidable BLUE screen like when gates previewed '98 ;) haha |
| sN00Py | do you know how many watches petro has sold? |
| sN00Py | ga |
| tekmage | que is babsimov, TB |
| havemose | snoopy: no blue screen. We did have networking card die on us. GA |
| babsimov | QNX is a mutliplatform os, but how many compagnies support it (for graphics board, sounds board, printer etc...) ? Can we expect more support from other compagnie ? GA |
| havemose | sh\noopy: re networking. the os recoved and just continued to run without the networking capability fully functional !!! GA |
| TB | Will OS5 have some new technology, or just use existing? When I mean new technology, I refer to the mind blowing stuff Amiga 1st had. |
| havemose | babsimov: qnx is mostly in embedde applications. They are in cisco routers, IBM's pervasive computing initiative, |
| TB | oops. Didnt see the GA, Sorry. |
| havemose | nucelear powerplants, the space shuttle, etc. Stuff that cannot crash ! Very impressive customer based. |
| havemose | TB: We will introduce new UI technologies which combined with the new OS and networking will put the |
| havemose | Amiga back in the lead again. GA |
| tekmage | que is T-tam, Petah, fujiko, toshka, Dracvl |
| T-tam | 1) Are we going to use the amiga dir structure or the one on the QNX demo (unix style). 2) Are we going to use Photon GUI, or a new amiga GUI? GA |
| havemose | t-tam: 1) as previously explained, we haven't decided that yet. We will use the Photon technology but not the look and feel of photon. GA |
| Petah | This demo you've mentioned several times, was this running on a QNX system or some "alpha OS5 platform"? Have you begun OS5 development yet? And what about OS5 ARexx? (One more question) |
| havemose | petah: the demo was run on a stock PII 233 and PII 250. It booted directly into QNX on both systems. As a matter |
| Petah | The Amiga 1000 only requires 256K of RAM to boot; later Amiga models are equipped with 2M of RAM. What minimum requirements will OS5 display? Still considered a "tight, small and efficient OS"? GA |
| havemose | of fact, the scecond system booted over the network from the first system. GA |
| tekmage | que is fujiko, toshka, Dracvl, Nianfur, francis |
| fujiko | just asked, sorry ga |
| TB | Have: Did you see the 2nd set of the question? |
| havemose | tb: I did but forgot to answer. Here it comes ... |
| havemose | The sysem can boot from a 100k rom without disks. It can boot using a bootrom plus a HD, every config is posisble. |
| havemose | Graphics memory has no limitations,other than to do 1208x1024 in 24bits with double buffering you will need 4 to 8 MB. GA |
| toshka | what about audio standart? will your gl implementation work over net?when will we see os docs on site(like ones for current |
| toshka | qnx ) GA |
| tekmage | Que is Dracvl, Nianfur, francis, t-tam |
| havemose | toshka: we still have work to do on Audio. The OS already transparently can use the sound resource in any system on the |
| Cefalalgi | do not give me your question just a "?" I'll put you in the que |
| havemose | network (we showed this with the doom demo last night). I cannot be more specific at this point. GA |
| Dracvl | Just a comment - please don't make the new filesystem case sensitive. It's not very user friendly. Also, will you outsource other parts of the OS, or try to keep most of the development in "in-house"? (I know Amigas original FS was outsourced) And what about X-like server functionality? |
| Dracvl | GA |
| tekmage | Que is Nianfur, francis, t-tam, cefalalgi, toshka |
| havemose | Dracvl: I know about the sensitivity of "case insensitive" file systems. We're considering. I'm not sure I |
| havemose | understand what you mean x-server functionanlity. GA |
| Nianfur | Q/ With the given name of The Next Genetaion Amiga, What exactly is left of the Classic Amigas in this system, Or is the use of the Amiga Trade Mark a marketing ploy to gain an instant user base. GA |
| tekmage | que is francis, t-tam, cefalalgi, toshka |
| havemose | Nianfur: Personally I truly believe that we have to revisit every design decision that went into |
| havemose | the amiga in the 80s and 90s in order to build a truly revolutionary system again. T |
| havemose | That is what I have done. That will mean that much of what was elegant and high performance in the 80s |
| havemose | isnt capable of doing what we need to do today. Lots will have to go. But I believe that we |
| havemose | can keep the spirit of elegance and power very much alive. Rememer, I did run the Amiga OS group from |
| havemose | OS 2.1 all the way to the end. I understand what makes an amiga and amiga !. GA |
| tekmage | Que is t-tam, cefalalgi, toshka, lostman |
| francis | The IPC of QNX is only synchronous? If so, since AmigaOS is asynchronous also, isn't this a step behind? GA |
| havemose | francis: I don't know the answer to your question. Dracvl followup: |
| havemose | You can control any system over the network. This even includes "taking over" their mouse and screen. GA |
| T-tam | How much have the estimated timelines (4Q99) slipped because of the change in OS partner? And is fleecy in Koln and going to speak? GA |
| tekmage | Que is cefalalgi, toshka, lostman, Dracvl, toffel, stelm2 |
| havemose | t-tam: you are persistent! I don't want to give more details on time frame. Fleecy is back in the US, |
| havemose | we had a last minute problems with his visa, and we didn't want to risk him getting stuck in germany. GA |
| Cefalalgi | What stuff are you planing to add to QNX from the amiga? for example locale support, arexx... |
| havemose | Cefal: Amiga inc will focus on UI, look and feel, 3D grahics, multimedia, MPEG, Cable interfaces, etc. GA |
| tekmage | que is toshka, lostman, Dracvl, toffel, stelm2, TB |
| toshka | gl has many restrictions - will you add your extentions?+it basically doesn't support gui/windows(you need a lib for that) how |
| toshka | will yo handle that? what standart will you use to work with video processing h/w? |
| toshka | will all resources be shared over _tcp/ip_ network? GA |
| havemose | toshka: good point. That is exactly why Amiga needs to do the UI and OpenGL. The interfacing with |
| havemose | the window manager is important, and needs to be done by us. GA |
| lostman | Have: its been said in the past that the new system will address the issues of HDTV. Can anything more be said on this at this time? Do you see the new machine being strong in future video applications? |
| lostman | GA |
| tekmage | Que is Dracvl, toffel, stelm2, TB |
| Dracvl | Havemose already answered my question about X-server functionality. Thanks for choosing QNX, I think this is the best news to reach the Amiga community in a long, long time. (and tekmage, it's called a queue ;) |
| havemose | lostman: Several of the chips we're considering fully support HDTV resolutions. In addition, we have the |
| Dracvl | GA |
| havemose | rendering bandwith to "feed it" at resonable refresh rates. I fully expect the Amiga architecture |
| havemose | be a strong player over the next few years. gA |
| tekmage | queue is toffel, stelm2, TB, t-tam |
| TB | Sorry for the mix up, my display is corrupting. |
| Toffel | Hi! Perhaps this has already been asked (in that case: sorry)... will we see developer *books* when the Developer Amiga or Amiga-II will be released (like the RKMs)? GA |
| havemose | Let's take questions for another 5 minutes. I'll be back later during the show .. GA |
| tekmage | The queue is closed |
| tekmage | queue is stelm2, TB, t-tam, jalovick, toshka |
| havemose | Toffel: We will release developers manuals when we have all the info ready. GA |
| Stelm2 | Is the OS partner is QNX, but is the kernal to be used QNX or QNX-Neutrino? GA |
| havemose | Stelms2: Neutrino. GA |
| TB | Will OS5 support clustering, and has any of the old C= team contacted Amiga Inc to wish the best? |
| x-Fede | if there is time |
| havemose | tb: the os supports transparent networking with full 128 bit addresses. Clustering means differnt |
| havemose | things in different OS's, but we can build both flat and hirical networks. I've staed in touch with |
| havemose | many of my former collegues; a few may join the new team. Fundamentally, I don't mind building |
| havemose | an entirely new staff since we need "new thoughs" from the team. But time will tell who joins. GA |
| TB | Good to hear. |
| T-tam | (sorry to keep pestering) What did QNX think about the ICOA Programming Model? |
| T-tam | GA |
| tekmage | queue is jalovick, toshka |
| havemose | t-tam. I don't understad. What ICOA programming model ? GA |
| TB | ttam: Explain quick :) |
| T-tam | The one I spent 2 months working on :) Fleecy said you were showing QNX a few weeks ago |
| T-tam | GA |
| havemose | t-tam: qnx has a message based programming paradigm very much inspired by Amiga. That will stay that way. |
| havemose | The amiga modules will naturally match the QNX programming models, even though we have different view on C vs C++. GA |
| jalovick | From what I remember of QNX, its based around a Minix kernel, and is posix compliant. Keeping this in mind, will the new OS support open standards (apart from X, which I think was mentioned). Are there going to be package standards like rpm. |
| jalovick | How Open will the system be ? GA |
| havemose | jalovick. qnx will get very offended if you told them that they were minix based ! |
| havemose | Neutrino is entirely QNX. We will be standards based as much as possible. GA |
| TB | Last Question |
| toshka | will there be development enviroment hosted on current amiga machines and targeted to new os/machines?will you support MPI? GA |
| havemose | toshka: no. We will do all developement for OS5 on our new development system. GA |
| TB | Have: Thanks alot for speaking, really cleared some things up. :) |
| havemose | Everyone: Thank you very much for your interest. I'll be back later in the day and tomorrow to answer more questions. |
| tekmage | Thank you VERY much for your time, and good luck on the new system! :) |
| TB | Have: Get thinking about those code names ;) |
| havemose | I truly believe that the Amiga will be back in the lead in the veyr near future. Hang in there and help |
| havemose | us make the move to the next generation, Thanks ... Allan |
| TB | Ok people. We're going unmoderated to give us a rest for a while :) |
| tekmage | need rest |
| Toffel | interesting stuff :)) |
| ^Moridin | Next Speaker? |
